Lofland bLOG

Currently Listening to All That You Can’t Leave Behind by U2

I love this line:

“The only baggage you can bring is all that you can’t leave behind.”

Could be applied to so many things from walking with God to web design.

Then there is this from David Crowder:

“I’m finding everything I’ll ever need by giving up gaining everything.”

Then from Michael Card:

“It’s hard to imagine the freedom we find from the things we leave behind.”

Mark 10:21 - Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.

The reason one of the quotes I used in my last post rang so deeply with me was that it pointed to something I’ve been pondering deep in my heart for a while:

“but I felt as if this were an unearthly consummation of my happiness, that never had been meant to be, and never could have been.”

In other words, is the deep desire and longing that pervades my life at times actually a normal part of the Christian experience, that I am supposed to accept? Is it part of the knowledge of God and Heaven that is within me? Is it actually a good thing and not a bad one? Is seeking to fulfill or stop it actually a bad thing?

Is it part of the curse on the earth (”all creation groans in anticipation”)? Is it a bad thing we hang our heads under, but endure nevertheless?

Or is it a curse that can be lifted, and we should fight it with the tools God gives us, rather than living in bondage to it?

Or is it part of our tie with Christ? Our feeling in our bones the same longing that He has felt? A blessing and badge of honor that we should be proud of?

Then there was this post by the person I consider my second best friend next to my wife:

http://www.xanga.com/Krash2Fly/592955260/longing.html?nextdate=last

What do you think?

Posted 5/25/2007 11:00 AM

3 Comments:

You don’t know me. But here is my opinion on what you wrote. I think that we all to often as Christians think that the longings that God gave us are something to be ashamed of. And then we do walk around with our heads hang down. But I think that it is a blessing from God because that helps us understand Jesus longings. God gave us feelings for a reason and that is exactly how he intended for them to be used. They should be a badge of honor because it helps us to understand Christ love and desire to save us. So yes they are something we should be proud of.
Posted 5/26/2007 9:32 AM by Tinleg

Psalm 27

4 One thing have I asked of the Lord,
that will I seek after:
that I may dwell in the house of the Lord
all the days of my life,
to gaze upon the beauty of the Lord
and to inquire in his temple.

5 For he will hide me in his shelter
in the day of trouble;
he will conceal me under the cover of his tent;
he will lift me high upon a rock.

6 And now my head shall be lifted up
above my enemies all around me,
and I will offer in his tent
sacrifices with shouts of joy;
I will sing and make melody to the Lord.

7 Hear, O Lord, when I cry aloud;
be gracious to me and answer me!
8 You have said, “Seek [4] my face.”
My heart says to you,
“Your face, Lord, do I seek.” [5]
9 Hide not your face from me.
Turn not your servant away in anger,
O you who have been my help.
Cast me not off; forsake me not,
O God of my salvation!
10 For my father and my mother have forsaken me,
but the Lord will take me in.

11 Teach me your way, O Lord,
and lead me on a level path
because of my enemies.
12 Give me not up to the will of my adversaries;
for false witnesses have risen against me,
and they breathe out violence.

13 I believe that I shall look upon the goodness of the Lord
in the land of the living!
14 Wait for the Lord;
be strong, and let your heart take courage;
wait for the Lord!

This scripture really made me think of you. The writer’s heart, and desire for God, his seeking after God’s will, and his deep cry to the Lord for Him to answer. In the midst of all this, the writer also has hope and worships the Lord with great joy, recounting His Salvation, and he ends by reminding himself to take courage and wait for the Lord. There aren’t necessarily any answers to your questions here, but at least we can see that these feeling you are experiencing have been felt by other men of God, and, because of Scripture we know, that God did honor and answer these cries. God has really placed you on my heart through all this, and I will be praying for you.

Your sister in Christ,

~Jessica

PS: Micah’s post rocks, and I’ll have to respond to it on his web page.
Posted 5/26/2007 12:02 PM by Tegwenava

Is not the petition of the Lord’s prayer like this? “Thy kingdom come….” Who can say that God has answered this prayer? Yet God is answering it, and we keep asking, pursuing, longing, groaning.

“Come quickly, Lord Jesus!”
Posted 5/26/2007 2:15 PM by jonathan_camenisch

From David Copperfield, by Charles Dickens:

“I search my breast, and I commit its secrets, if I know them, … to this paper. The old unhappy loss or want of something had, I am conscious, some place in my heart; but not to the embitterment of my life. When I walked alone in the fine weather, and thought of the summer days when all the air had been filled with my boyish enchantments, I did miss something of the realization of my dreams; but I thought it was a softened glory of the past, which nothing could have thrown upon the present time. I did feel, sometimes, for a little while, that I could have wished my wife had been my counselor; had had more character and purpose, to sustain me, and improve me by; had been endowed with power to fill up the void which somewhere seemed to be about me; but I felt as if this were an unearthly consummation of my happiness, that never had been meant to be, and never could have been.”

“The old unhappy feelings pervaded my life. It was deepened, if it were changed at all; but it was as undefined as ever, and addressed me like a strain of sorrowful music faintly heard in the night. … I was happy; but the happiness I had vaguely anticipated, once, was not the happiness I enjoyed, and there was always something wanting.
“… What I missed, I still regarded-I always regarded-as something that had been a dream of my youthful fancy; that was incapable of realization; that I was now discovering to be so, with some natural pain, as all men did. But, that it would have been better for me if my wife could have helped me more, and shared the many thoughts in which I had no partner; and that this might have been; I knew.
“Between these two irreconcilable conclusions: the one, that what I felt was general and unavoidable; the other, that it was particular to me, and might have been different: I balanced curiously, with no distinct sense of their opposition to each other. When I thought of the airy dreams of youth that are incapable of realization, I thought of the better state preceding manhood that I had outgrown.”

The old unhappy loss or want of something had

I did miss something of the realization of my dreams; but I thought it was a softened glory of the past, which nothing could have thrown upon the present time.

but I felt as if this were an unearthly consummation of my happiness, that never had been meant to be, and never could have been.

Between these two irreconcilable conclusions: the one, that what I felt was general and unavoidable; the other, that it was particular to me, and might have been different: I balanced curiously, with no distinct sense of their opposition to each other.

David was finding that his marriage did not bring quite the happiness that he had anticipated. He felt this was a combination of simply learning about the realities of life and of decisions he had made. He was really not sure what the problem was.

These words sunk deep into my heart when I head them read last week, for the describe my feelings about my current employment almost exactly. While David needed the patience to deal with the thing he could not change, I need the courage to deal with what I can. I’m not sure which is harder. I think it would be easier to just accept my employment as unchangeable and learn to live with the sense of loss, than to strike out anew at this point. I’m not sure even what I should do. I need the wisdom to know the difference!

I feel that I am at a crisis point in my faith. I feel strange using that term, because I’ve “been there” for some years now, but it is building like a storm. I really must discover and decide certain things about God in order to move forward. Who I perceive God to be must either have a profound impact on my life, or my life should just fit into the “mold” that God has made all life to be.

Am I a bird or a man? Birds fulfill God’s purpose for their lives simply by being birds. They do nothing special, only their role. I have traveled for some time under that same mentality. I am a bird. I make a living, I build a home, I find a wife, I raise my kids, I function according to God’s design for the universe, and thus I glorify Him.

IS that right? Or should God have such a profound impact on my life that I do NOT fit into this world, but am a stranger and a pilgrim, not just figuratively, but even more in reality?

Feeling this point with particular strength yesterday, as it had grown over our recent vacation, I started watching Spider Man 2 last night. I really was completely unprepared to be hit in the face with my exact question. I’d seen the movie before, but forgot just how applicable it is to my situation. (Perhaps this shows that I was not feeling this so strongly when I last saw the movie.)

What should Spider Man do? Should he ditch the clown suit, do his homework and hold down a steady job so he can provide for the girl he loves and raise a family? Perhaps even save his Aunt’s house from being repossessed? Or should he be what God made him to be, put on the suit, fight crime, go out into the world and do good and noble deeds for the good of all mankind while his own family suffers the inevitable consequences?

Whose hero should he be?

Should I stay in a very well paying, very steady job with lots of paid vacation time, regardless of if the work does absolutely no good for mankind and bores and numbs me so badly that I feel it is literally eating away at my soul? Or should I leave all of this luxury and commit my life to serving God full time in some sort of ministry where I can work with people and do some good in this world, allowing my family to suffer the difficulties of living without? Without financial ease to buy the things we need as we need them, without medical/dental insurance to quickly diagnose and treat any ailment that may come along, without paid vacation time to build our relationships?

I’m not sure which one is right, which one is God’s direction?

Both have selfish motives for me. I stay with my good job so that my family does not suffer and I do not have to deal with the stress of finances. I leave my good job so that I can seek personal fulfillment by serving God and others.

The question is, which direction do I go, and why? I must either sell my soul to the devil or to God, but I can’t differentiate the two! I hear the two voices in my head and I do not know which is which.

Am I a bird, meant to glorify God by simply being steady, denying my heart, and working hard to provide for my nest? Or am I a super hero, meant to glorify God by serving people, denying my family the comfortable life that I know i could provide for them?

Do I have a choice to make, and if so which one? Or is this all just the lost of my boyish fantasy, finding out the reality of life, feeling the deep pain in my soul that is common to all men on earth? Should I just count my blessings, apply myself to the task I have before me, and be a good bird for God?

Posted 5/17/2007 11:17 AM

4 Comments:

Why, do you suppose am I currently unemployed and doing part time work for my dad’s company to keep bills paid, when I could be out earning my keep?

I hear ya LOUD and CLEAR bro! If you find a definitive, rather than just a subjective answer, let me know!

Till then– It’s a bird, it’s a plane, it’…, it’s…, it’s…– You, me, Spidey, and Superman!
Posted 5/18/2007 5:19 PM by Krash2Fly

Wow. What a question. I wish you a way towards the answer even if you can’t find it now.
Posted 5/21/2007 8:27 PM by Godseeker23

Hey Christen,

First, I just want to say how much I respect you for being willing, to not only struggle with these thoughts that might be easier to just ignore, but also for being willing to share them with others, some of which you haven’t even met J. I truly admire your heart to seek God’s will for your life, and to admit struggle even when you are an adult with a family. I know that God is pleased when we admit our need for Him and cry out for his help. “If any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask God, who gives generously to all without reproach, and it will be given him. But let him ask in faith, with no doubting.” James 1:5-6

May I suggest one thought? Have you considered that you might be battling a false dichotomy? Perhaps God has provided a way in which men may serve him with their whole lives, while still living in the station to which he was called, according to the gifts he has been given. This passage from 1 Corinthians 7 is very good:

“17 Only let each person lead the life that the Lord has assigned to him, and to which God has called him. This is my rule in all the churches. 18 Was anyone at the time of his call already circumcised? Let him not seek to remove the marks of circumcision. Was anyone at the time of his call uncircumcised? Let him not seek circumcision. 19 For neither circumcision counts for anything nor uncircumcision, but keeping the commandments of God. 20 Each one should remain in the condition in which he was called. 21 Were you a slave when called? Do not be concerned about it. (But if you can gain your freedom, avail yourself of the opportunity.) 22 For he who was called in the Lord as a slave is a freedman of the Lord. Likewise he who was free when called is a slave of Christ. 23 You were bought with a price; do not become slaves of men. 24 So, brothers, in whatever condition each was called, there let him remain with God.”

Paul touches on many topics here, but one thing we can undoubtably gather from the passage is that God enabled each of us to live abundant and sacrificial lives for Him, regardless of where we find ourselves. Paul is encouraging those who find themselves in difficult situations not to feel as though they must be in full time ministry, or even economic freedom, in order to please and serve the Lord. In fact, most of our brothers and sisters, throughout history, have had vocational jobs that simply supported their local economy. Even though this may seem less glamorous than the work of a missionary, I don’t believe that it is any less worthy in God’s sight. When we as Christians spread the gospel, it is these very people that we are reaching out to. Jesus was a carpenter for almost his whole life (as far as we know). There is no doubt that each of us are called to live passionate lives for our savior, abandoning the world, our own ambitions and comfort in order to advance his Kingdom. This is clear in scripture. But maybe we have the ability to do this no matter our vocation, station, salary or situation.

“Religion that is pure and undefiled before God, the Father, is this: to visit orphans and widows in their affliction, and to keep oneself unstained from the world.” James 1:27.

“Since therefore Christ suffered in the flesh, arm yourselves with the same way of thinking, for whoever has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin, 2 so as to live for the rest of the time in the flesh no longer for human passions but for the will of God.” 1 Pet 4:1-2

The cool thing about this is that scripture also tells us what the will of God is for us:

“And we urge you, brothers, admonish the idle, encourage the fainthearted, help the weak, be patient with them all. 15 See that no one repays anyone evil for evil, but always seek to do good to one another and to everyone. 16 Rejoice always, 17 pray without ceasing, 18 give thanks in all circumstances; for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus for you.” I Thes 5:14-17

The good news is that Christ died, and we have been buried with him, and that now he has given us his righteousness and worth before God. Jesus called us to “sell everything and follow him” but through other passages in the Bible, I think that for most of us this usually means selling all of our pre-conceptions, ambitions and expectations and then going where-ever he calls us to go- even if He’s calling us to something that doesn’t appear to be helpful. There are so many encouraging examples of this in the Bible. One of my favorites is David, the supposedly future King of Israel, when he was living with the Philistines- the very enemies of Israel whom he had defeated when he killed Goliath. No doubt that he felt pretty confused and wondered if his life was pointless at those times. No doubt he wondered if all the prophesies and hopes were no more than a dream of his youth. But God was leading David, in places he would never have chosen, and yet David continually sought to inquire of the Lord, and to only go where the Lord promised to go before him.

Christen, I have no idea what the will of the Lord is for your life. I have no doubt that he has prepared many good works for you. And I would guess that this will look different at different times of your life. Perhaps God has a vocational ministry in store for you. That would be so wonderful, and I respect your faith and willingness to follow Him there, if he were to call you. But I just want to encourage you, if He were to call you to remain in your current situation, that no matter where you are, that you don’t have to just be a bird. That there are opportunities all around us, in our homes, churches and communities, provided by God, to bring him glory and to do his work. In fact, if you are financially stable you probably have even more lee-way than most to serve others around you. I’m sure there are many people around you that could benefit, simply from a gift of hospitality, wisdom, knowledge and fellowship that you could offer them. I know for a fact that God has given you and Jerusha many beautiful giftings. One of the most wonderful “games” or adventures in life is discovering ways to use them. J

I hope this is encouraging to you. I know that Jared and I have to struggle with and remember these things regularly (I mean, the prospect of being a stay at home mom can feel pretty insignificant and unglamorous compared to being an evangelist to the inner city or the middle east- yet imagine how many Christians have been called to this). But what is so cool is that God never ceases to surprise us, by using us to serve, encourage and spread the good news to others- even if it happens in the most unexpected ways J (ask Jared, he could tell you some crazy stories). May the Lord bless you and continue to show you His will. I can’t wait to see all of the wonderful things He will undoubtedly do in your life. J

“7 Show yourself in all respects to be a model of good works, and in your teaching show integrity, dignity, 8 and sound speech that cannot be condemned, so that an opponent may be put to shame, having nothing evil to say about us. 9 Slaves are to be submissive to their own masters in everything; they are to be well-pleasing, not argumentative, 10 not pilfering, but showing all good faith, so that in everything they may adorn the doctrine of God our Savior.” Titus 2:7-10

Our Lord be with you,

~Jessica
Posted 5/22/2007 7:57 AM by Tegwenava

Well, yeah, but you could just buy a new cell phone. You have to do that anyway. And I think it was Jared who first demonstrated to me how to do that =)
Posted 5/22/2007 10:54 AM by madhatterb78

This article was really fun:

Seems like maybe someone isn’t really thinking things through. This sounds a lot worse than drilling in Alaska.

Posted 4/30/2007 3:40 PM

1 Comment:

Yipes!
Posted 5/1/2007 12:05 PM by jonathan_camenisch

As a follow up to my previous blog about the ocean of information we live in

http://www.lofland.net/LoflandBLOG/2007/04/23/swim-dont-drink/

I wanted to mention AI. This is where artificial intelligence is going now. This is what we need it for. Currently we have many great tools for navigating the ocean of information. Google is one of those we think of first. Do many of you remember the days before Google? I used Alta Vista, which was set up by Digital to showcase how powerful their servers were. (Which makes the fact that Google has tended to use PC class equipment somewhat of an irony.) It did index the web, but that was about it. It was a real art to craft a search query that would get you what you wanted. Even then, it was hard to know if you got the “best” hits. Google revolutionized web searching. Now we don’t have home pages with lists of sites we found useful, some of us don’t even use bookmarks. We can count on Google to consistently find us good content.

Google is a hugely poor tool, though, considering how much information is out there. Consider these two questions:

Where can I find a florist in Oklahoma City?

If I buy a Garmin GPS receiver for my smartphone, and want to put maps of the Eastern half of the United States onto my smartphone’s SD card, how much space will it take?

The answers to both questions are contained in information alone. The answer to both questions are on the web. Google will answer one of them well, but not the other.

What we need from AI is not a computer to “think” for us, but for a computer to parse our human language and then use the ocean of information to bring answers. So while AI can never answer the question, “Which car will I enjoy driving the most?” (other than based on statistics), it will be able to answer, “How much fuel per month will I save driving a Miata versus driving a Subaru WRX?”

AI is not going to replace human creativity, but how much human time is wasted gathering answers from information? When AI can take over more and more of the jobs of gathering answers from information, then we can be more and more free to use our time on creative pursuits.

Posted 4/27/2007 2:01 PM

2 Comments:

I don’t have anything intelligent to add to this, but since you mention AI, there’s something that strikes me funny. Now that AI is no longer a buzzword we hear very much, it’s a successful tool we use in everyday life.
Posted 4/28/2007 12:57 PM by jonathan_camenisch

> I haven’t dug into it lately, but I’m not sure we really
> have a good definition for what AI is yet, so we don’t
> know if we’ve “achieved it” or not.

Well, let me know when you find a proper definition. But it seems to me that what Google does is present an artificial illusion of intelligence–just not as much intelligence as you are hoping for.

I don’t think we will ever be able to say someone has “achieved it.”

Oh, and SPAM filters also use some forms of artificial intelligence. Pretty crude compared to the cyborgs on T2 or whatever, but its aim is “intelligence.”
Posted 4/29/2007 8:16 AM by jonathan_camenisch

This is just a rant without much meaning.

Do you ever wonder why you even bother working?

AT&T is a big company, one of the biggest in America, and its CEO is retiring:

http://money.cnn.com/2007/04/27/news/newsmakers/att_whitacre/index.htm?postversion=2007042708

Now this is what he gets for NOT working:
According to a proxy filing with the Securities and Exchange Commission, Whitacre’s retirement package will include $24,000 in annual automobile benefits, $6,500 each year for “home security,” and $25,000 to cover his country-club fees, The Wall Street Journal said.

Now let me think about that. That means that he can buy my car sixteen times, per year! He can make my monthly house payment with the money he is spending on his “home security.” In less than four years he can buy my house for what he is paying for his country-club membership.

All in all, his retirement package is valued at $158.5 MILLION!

I can get a 5.5% interest rate on a savings account with over $100,000 in it, so if I put ONE million dollars in that, I can make 55,000 per year in INTEREST. I make a little more than that now, but my family could live off of that. And that is just a savings account, much better returns can be had on large sums like one million dollars through other investments.

In other words, I could live 158.5 lifetimes on what he will get for his retirement.

In other words, I am working 40 to 50 hours a week for really small potatoes. One starts to wonder why even bother? It is obvious that AT&T could set 158 (and a half) people free for life if their CEO could just be happy to live like “the rest of us.”

Just what am I working for, and just what are we paying for when we buy goods like phone service, cell phones, etc?

Honestly the whole thing just devalues money in general. If it is thrown around that freely, maybe it isn’t really worth anything after all. Maybe it isn’t even worth my time, and if money isn’t worth anyone’s time, then it isn’t worth anything at all.

Isn’t it interesting that everyone can pretty much think the same thing and yet all assume that everyone else thinks something else?

Adolescence is that way. Everyone thinks they are weird, and that everyone else thinks so, when really everyone is just thinking they are weird.

Actually, one thing that helped me as a teenager to get over my constant worry that everyone thought I was stupid was that my mom would just tell me that everyone was too busy thinking about themselves to think about me.

Anyway, apparently the city I live in has this complex. We all like our town, but we think each other all hate it. At least according to this article:

http://wichitaeagle.com/196/v-print/story/41448.html

Posted 4/26/2007 2:28 PM

1 Comment:

Yeah, except that with adolescence, adults get over the feeling, usually learn to not be very alive anymore, and look at you strangely when you talk about what you’re feeling. So people don’t usually talk about it: they get weird looks.
Posted 4/28/2007 3:48 PM by Godseeker23

. . . was a rather funny and deep line from Fiddler on the Roof that I think of often.

This is a good article on “liking” God:

http://www.boundless.org/2005/articles/a0001478.cfm

Posted 4/26/2007 2:19 PM

2 Comments:

Good essay. Thanks for the link.
Posted 4/27/2007 12:12 PM by jonathan_camenisch

Yeah, I talked with a guy a few days ago who had never ever known that God liked him. All his life! And he was the kind of God-follower you want to be like. He realized it that day. It was cool.
Posted 4/28/2007 3:53 PM by Godseeker23

This add made me laugh out loud:

When I saw “browse off-line” what came to mind was something to do with my new Smartphone, not a newspaper, and the way it states “IN PRINT” just makes me smile.

I should do more off-line browsing.
Posted 4/25/2007 1:18 PM

1 Comment:

Lol, that was good. But then, if it isn’t the Sabath, wouldn’t the Lord’s day be every day? And it was ok that we did all that since we did it “heartily, as unto the Lord.”
Posted 4/25/2007 9:55 PM by madhatterb78

American muscle cars are fun for a while, but it just gets old. Here is a fun little fact sheet that goes around the office email humor list periodically:

Acceleration, Put Into Perspective

Putting this all into perspective:
You are driving the average $140,000 Lingenfelter twin-turbo powered
Corvette Z06. Over a mile up the road, a Top Fuel dragster is staged &
ready to launch down a quarter-mile strip as you pass. You have the
advantage of a flying start. You run the ‘Vette hard up through the
gears and blast across the starting line & pass the dragster at an
honest 200 MPH. The ‘tree’ goes green for both of you at that moment.
The dragster launches & starts after you. You keep your foot down
hard, but you hear an incredibly brutal whine that sears your eardrums
& within 3 seconds the dragster catches & passes you. He beats you to
the finish line, a quarter-mile away from where you just passed him.
Think about it - from a standing start, the dragster had spotted you
200 MPH & not only caught, but nearly blasted you off the road when he
passed you within a mere 1320 foot long race! That, is acceleration!

Which is basically why I sold my Mustang GT and now drive a 1.6 liter Miata. The
horsepower game is just a matter of how much money you can pour into a given hole in
a given amount of time. There is always someone who has more money than you who can,
therefore, go faster.

I mean, after reading this, who really cares how fast your [insert
any car you please here] can do the quarter mile?

What that top fuel car cannot do, is turn.

After watching the presentation on “Shift Happens” about how exploding populations on China and India make America start to pale in comparison, here is another presentation to show us just how small we are:

The Size Of Our World

Juxtapose that with the fact that matter is mostly empty space filled with particles that are so small we can hardly imagine them, much less detect them, and it is clear that God is really into absolutely insane ranges of scale.

Posted 4/25/2007 8:09 AM

1 Comment:

No, I said Sunday. The Sabath was the day before.
Posted 4/25/2007 8:53 AM by madhatterb78

Currently Listening to The World As Best As I Remember It, Volume 1 by Rich Mullins

First, here is a very interesting presentation, if the link isn’t dead yet:

http://www.glumbert.com/media/shift

And then these facts:

“It took two centuries to fill the U.S. Library of Congress in Washington, DC, with more than 29 million books and periodicals, 2.7 million recordings, 12 million photographs, 4.8 million maps, and 57 million manuscripts. Today it takes about 15 minutes for the world to churn out an equivalent amount of new digital information. It does so about 100 times every day, for a grand total of 5 exabytes annually.” http://www.spectrum.ieee.org/jul05/1568

“The first disk drive in 1956 stored 2,000 bits per square inch. In disk drives today, the figure is as high as 135 billion bits per square inch. That’s almost a 70 million fold increase! And in the next 5 years, we will ship m ore disk drives than we shipped in the first 50 years.” - Currie Munce, Hitachi Global Storage Technologies

Our world has undergone a huge change, and we in it.

I remember hearing about a man who lived some centuries ago who had read everything available in print in several languages. That was entirely possible for someone who was literate enough , but more importantly, wealthy enough to do so.

Information was something you drank in. You drank it and it became a part of you. Universities would be a place full of books and people full of information from which you took it in. Like huge drinking fountains.

Today you can no longer drink information. It is as if drinking in the Ocean. No, instead we must navigate it. We must learn to swim in it, or drown in it. Universities, rather than drinking fountains, are now schools to teach SCUBA diving.

Dealing with information today is as different from the past as drinking a glass of water is from SCUBA diving. It is still water, but what we can and must do with it is totally different.

Posted 4/23/2007 10:34 AM

3 Comments:

Wow, I really like your description. Very poignant. And I completely agree about modern Universities. virtually all literary scholars have to come to grips with the fact that we will likely never come up with an original literary idea, and even for those who do, the vast majority of our academic lives will actually be spent sifting and swimming through mountains of other people’s theories, ideas and findings that we will then apply in our own way, to make our own arguments. It’s nuts. Comp I has for the most part been narrowed down to: teach them how to read, teach them how to find info (research) and regurgitate it back, in a format centered around citing sources (MLA/APA): thus the research paper. That is the basic building block of all language-oriented studies. It really tells you something. Good post.

Tegwen†
Posted 4/23/2007 11:24 AM by Tegwenava

Yes, how true. And who knows what to make of all this. I’m torn between the reality that the world is irreversibly changed and changing, and wondering if we should try to reverse some of the effects. For instance, all the swimming in the sea of information seems to make me an info-bulimic. I drink it in and spit it up, then drink in some more. It’s so hard to absorb anything.

And then there’s the problem of having to re-learn skills all the time as tools change. Programmers who mastered procedural programming soon had to get their heads around object-oriented programming (and few did, it seems), and now there’s functional programming, service-oriented, etc. In older arts, the discipline is stable. Accountants never have to re-learn the subtleties of credit and debit, because the concepts were set it stone long ago. Part of me longs for the day when today’s new things become old and stable, so we can figure out what it takes to master them.

Maybe these are “good” problems to have. But I don’t think our education prepares us well to handle it all. And who knows how it should?

I also think you like it. You’re the guy that likes learning new gadgets, and even overhauling your system of organizing your life. Maybe I should develop that taste. All the re-learning and revamping just seems like such an interruption. I would rather be creating something than re-learning my creative tools.

Hmmm. Maybe it’s the perfectionists who will drown in this ocean.
Posted 4/24/2007 8:01 AM by jonathan_camenisch

I have thought about this some more, and I have to post an amendment to my own comment. I’m realizing that I like this ocean of information too. I like it because we actually have tools to manage it well.

An example is my wife’s business website (rebeccassilverrose.com). We created that site last summer. It’s nothing big, not in the top 100 or 100,000 sites on the web. We’ve made hardly an effort to market the site, beyond designing it carefully and listing her business on Superpages and Google maps.

What’s amazing in this day and age is that people actually find the site! I mean people that are looking for a florist in Oklahoma City find it and get in touch with her through it.

In other words, we added our little drop to that sea of information, and some of those who have a valid interest actually find it! In 15-years-ago terms, that’s incredible.

So I like it. The efficiencies are astounding. I’m just overwhelmed by it all sometimes. I think that to keep our humanity and our sanity, we need to step away from it all sometimes, slow down, and drink in more of less, instead of so little of so much.
Posted 4/27/2007 12:23 PM by jonathan_camenisch

Currently Listening to The Joshua Tree by U2

I found this fun piece on a web site for people to rant against what they hate. This guy claims to live in the “bible belt” (which he properly uses as a derogatory term, as it was coined to be) and was ranting about what he hates about it. Mostly he was annoyed at the restrictions on when and where they can buy alcohol, but he had a fun story about the people that he runs into, or that run into him rather:

one evening a few months ago I realized I needed some milk for my cereal, so I put on some shorts and a tshirt and went to the grocery store. the tshirt happened to have a caffeine molecule on it, and the shorts, as shorts tend to do, left my calves uncovered, which displayed my two tattoos. milk in hand, I was waiting in the checkout line, minding my own business, when a pentecostal lady in line behind me (easily identifiable: they don’t cut their hair, don’t style it, don’t wear make-up (or earrings even I think?), and can’t wear pants, so they’re always wearing ankle-length denim skirts. [something about ‘not dressing as a man’]) taps me on the shoulder and says, “satan has a place ready for you.” … I’m sorry, what was that? “mutilating your body like that is a sin against god, as is the drugs you obviously take. you’re going to go to hell.”

Wow, just where do they find these people?

If you are a Christian, just remember that:
A. This may just be the stereotype you are working under.
B. If you even come close to coming across like this, you are way off base.

Posted 4/20/2007 12:27 PM

3 Comments:

Wow. Um, yeah.
Posted 4/21/2007 3:05 PM by Godseeker23

That’s one reason I shy away from witnessing to people.
Posted 4/21/2007 3:07 PM by Godseeker23
This reminds me of a story my friend Josh told me. He was working on a video project out at Disney MGM. It was a celebrity impersonator contest. Josh was standing at a door directing the traffic of female Elvises and George Bushes. One particular woman stood out. She was a Marilyn Monroe impersonator - in her sixties or seventies, I believe. According to Josh she was intentionally nasty. He had no idea how to respond when she started commenting on his tattoos. Reminding him that his body was a temple - and maybe something about the law forbidding marks on the body. Anyway. Josh really had no idea how to respond. The bitter irony of being verbally assaulted for your lack of morality - by Maryline Monroe - is just enough to make your head spin.
Posted 4/24/2007 9:53 PM by novisigothsorkangaroos

I was very gratified to receive this email recently:
_________________________________________________________
Subject: From: Mrs.Carolyn Trowells….
From: ariolak001@hawaii.rr.com
Date: Tue, April 17, 2007 5:25 pm
To: undisclosed-recipients:;

Hello,
I am Mrs. Carolyn Trowells a british citizen living in Ishikawa Japan.
I lost my family (Husband and Kid) in the quake disaster that happened
in Ishikawa Japan.
My late husband before his demise,deposited the sum of £7.5 Million
Pounds (Seven Million Five Hundred Thousand Pounds) with a Finance &
Trust Company in Europe. I just received a message from the company
stating that I am the sole beneficiary to this deposited funds.And
that, the funds are in a dormat status and needs to be
active/operational so as to enable them release and transfer this
funds to me as soon as possible.
I am presently in a hospital in Ishikawa Japan receiving medical
treatment. Due to my deteriorating state of health, I am not sure I
will be able to survive because I feel so much pain in my upper chest
region.

I am contacting you to help me carry out my last wishes.I have so much
faith in you and for this reason,I am entrusting this huge
responsibility on you.

1. I want you to claim on my behalf, the deposited funds.
2. I want you to build an orphanage home in your country with part of
the funds.
3. I want you to fund churches,mosques,less priviledges and the needy
most especially orphanage homes and widows.

Finally,you are to document all expenses incured during the
transaction.And you are to reimburse yourself as soon as the funds is
transfered to you.I took this decision because it is blessed to give
than to receive. I don’t want a situation where this money will be
used to carry out nefarious activities.I urge you to get back to me on
this and also hoping to hear that you are willing and ready to help me.

Sincerely,

Mrs. Xiang Li (Bed assistant).
for
Mrs.Carolyn Trowells

N.B:Please pardon me, I got your contact email address from a google
search for reputable individuals.
_________________________________________________________

I am a reputable individual!

Posted 4/20/2007 9:04 AM

2 Comments:

Yes, Google would certainly know if anybody does. I’m glad you’re getting some recognition!
Posted 4/21/2007 2:04 PM by jonathan_camenisch

Now that you have the text on your xanga - google will be able to tag you even more effectively! Yay!
Posted 4/24/2007 9:54 PM by novisigothsorkangaroos

The supreme court finally upheld the ban on “partial birth abortion” or rather, as it is correctly known: intact dilation and extraction.

Sounds like a huge win, right?

Maybe, or is it really just more right wing spin stupidity?

Here is my understanding: This does NOT stop abortions at any point. What it does is simply legislate a procedure. Instead of intact dilation and extraction, where they kill the little guy and pull him out whole, they must use “dilation and evacuation” where they kill him, then chop him up into little pieces first and then pull him out.

So, who wins? Nobody.

Maybe I am completely misunderstanding this, but it seems like they are just banning a specific procedure because it sounds bad, and thus requiring the use of another procedure that doesn’t have an inflammatory name (not a real name, but one put on it by protesters) like “partial birth” with no net reduction in abortions.

Actually, to add to the bazaar nature of this, I don’t think the law even mentions the procedure, but rather uses the words “partial birth” which is, well, not a medical term. So it seems up to a judge, somewhere, some day (soon I am sure) to set up case law to decide what “partial birth” means.

The use of spin terms, instead of medical terms in this law makes this whole thing that much more suspicious. It sounds like they just want to be able to put “passed the partial birth abortion ban” on their resume, even though the bill ranges from meaningless to dangerous.

Here is an article that goes into some of it, although it leaves a lot of questions unanswered and seems to start out with a bias in favor of abortion, although, again, it is hard to tell if they are in favor of abortion, or just against silly legislation:
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5168163

I am interested in other views or corrections, but please, include citations. We can “talk” about it all day long, but this isn’t an opinion, there are facts there somewhere, if we can just unearth them from beneath all of the spin.

P.S. You may NOT cite anything from anyone associatd with Pat Robertson, or his ministries. I am afraid he lacks credibility.
Posted 4/18/2007 3:14 PM

2 Comments:

Interesting… didn’t think about it in those terms… To reply to your statement on my page, what about this: “Without repentance there can be no forgiveness…” Repentance requires an understanding of sin, and forgiveness is requisite to salvation (since we must be perfect… grace through faith). If there is no forgiveness, there is no salvation, and without repentance there cannot be forgiveness, and so it leads us inexorably to the final conclusion that without the understanding of sin there cannot be repentance, hence no forgiveness, hence no salvific state… Jesus told a parable about two men who were both forgiven their debts: One only owed $20 or so, while the other owed hundreds of thousands. Who would LOVE the one who forgave them more? The answer: the one who knew that he had the massive debt. The love comes from the understanding that they were forgiven of massive sin… It does not usually, unfortunately, come of its own accord, leading to repentance. Even so, the concept of sin is still understood by the feldgling believer. Two more cents in your direction. L8ers.
Posted 4/19/2007 5:53 PM by NathanKing

Ok, I read the NPR article, and from what I can tell a small battle has been won- however small. It does not stop abortions but it limits the inhumaniy in the abortion. Here’s what the article said:

[the bill] prohibits doctors from knowingly performing a “partial-birth abortion,” a procedure it defines as one in which the person performing the abortion “deliberately and intentionally vaginally delivers a living fetus until, in the case of a head-first presentation, the entire fetal head is outside the body of the mother, or, in the case of breech presentation, any part of the fetal trunk past the navel is outside the body of the mother.”

In other words they can NOT deliver the baby, alive, then kill it by puncturing it’s head (D&X). This is terrible and I am glad they aren’t allowed to do it any more.

So I’m guessing that this new laws implication is that the child must be killed while it is still inside the woumb (correct me if I’m wrong). The fact that this is legal at all is horrific, and I’m sure they could do just as much harm to a child in the woumb as they do out of it, but in some sense, I still feel like the law has limited the amount of brutality allowed. Also, because of the risk of lacerating the cervix there is a chance that some women would not have abortions after 20 weeks of pregnancy. Even if this only saves a few, it’s something.

I think the bigest sign that this law does have some positive influence is the fact that pro-abortion lobiests are upset about it. As the article says:

“Abortion-rights backers say the ban is a first step toward trying to outlaw all abortions. Even some supporters of the ban say that if it is upheld, they could then move on to try to outlaw the far more common D&E procedure, whose description is nearly as unpleasant as that of the D&X.”

This is exactly what we want. Let’s pray that by God’s mercy, it will be the case.”

“Moreover, I saw under the sun that in the place of justice, even there was wickedness, and in the place of righteousness, even there was wickedness.” (Ecclesiastes 3:16) But I still believe that we should rejoice in any small steps that Justice can take in a world ever more given to sin.

“I said in my heart, God will judge the righteous and the wicked, for there is a time for every matter and for every work.” (Ecclesiastes 3:17)
Posted 4/24/2007 1:20 PM by Tegwenava

Gotta love Google!

(Be sure to click on the big “Getting Started with Google TiSP” button to read about how it works!)

http://www.google.com/tisp/

LOL
Posted 4/10/2007 12:59 PM

3 Comments:

Mmwoohahahaha!
Posted 4/11/2007 6:18 AM by jonathan_camenisch

Google is great… Esther believed it when I sent her information about Gmail Paper (http://mail.google.com/mail/help/paper/index.html).
Posted 4/11/2007 11:41 AM by midwifebethany

That’s funny.
Posted 4/11/2007 1:59 PM by Godseeker23

Thanks to Bethany for pointing out that CNN took down the article. Who knows how they decide what to leave for generations to come, and what to pull.

I found a similar article, so here goes again . . .

Just how far does the government need to go to protect our safety?

http://www.cnn.com/2006/TECH/space/12/29/fs.asteroids/index.html

Now the real question I have, is are there any blinking lights on any of those asteroids?

Posted 4/7/2007 2:45 PM

1 Comment:

Wouldn’t an asteroid help a lot with the future over-population crisis?

Of course, I guess the same could be said of AIDS, bird flu, and world war III.

How can we even converse about such things without some kind of shared moral framework? I mean, do we really have any reason to be that the survival of our species matters at all? Or why should we care about our children and their children? Isn’t that mixing religion with government?

But I digress from your topic to one that’s been bugging me…
Posted 4/7/2007 4:13 PM by jonathan_camenisch

I was discussing with a friend recently how I really have to admit that I hate sermons. My friend seemed to feel they were probably biblical, although, to be fair, we did not discuss it much. Anyway, my wife did some quick research on the subject. I think that the facts she dug up generally show that the modern form of monologue preaching is not supported by the Bible or history. I was going to try to write up a convincing article myself, based on these facts, but since I get paid to administer Unix servers and not to write, I’ll just dump the facts onto this Unix server that Xanga runs for us and let you decide for yourself to agree with me.

So, in brief:

Deffinition of the word “sermon:”
The word “sermon” comes from a Middle English word which was derived from an
Old French term, which in turn came from the Latin word sermō;
(”discourse”). (Actually, it meant “conversation”, and early sermons were
delivered in the form of question and answer, only later did it come to mean
a monologue)

From Wikipedia ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sermon ):
The sermon takes center stage in Protestantism:
“Later the Reformation led to Protestant sermons, many of which defended the
schism with the Roman Catholic Church and explained beliefs about scripture,
theology and devotion. Since the distinctive doctrines of Protestantism held
that salvation was by faith alone, and convincing people to believe the
Gospel and place trust in God for their salvation through Jesus Christ was
the decisive step in salvation, in Protestantism the sermon and hymn came to
replace the Eucharist as the central act of Christian worship. To rouse
deeper faith in the churchgoers, rather than have them partake in a ritual,
was the goal of Protestant worship conditioned by these beliefs.”

Greek deffinition:
Gk 1256 (what Paul was doing while Eutychus fell asleep [quite literally])
1) to think different things with one’s self, mingle thought with thought
a) to ponder, revolve in mind
2) to converse, discourse with one, argue, discuss

From http://www.anabaptistnetwork.com/node/321
“Early Anabaptist congregations were distinguished from their Catholic or
Reformed contemporaries by the much greater freedom their members had to
participate actively in a learning community. There were monologue sermons,
but often a number of people made contributions. Questions were invited and
discussion took place. Gradually, as the tradition developed, a reversion to
the dominance of monologue preaching can be observed, but echoes of a more
communal approach remain, together with a conviction that God speaks through
many people, sharing their gifts and perspectives in a multi-voiced
community.”

From http://www.anabaptistnetwork.com/book/export/html/306
“Although the Anabaptists did not abandon sermons, they were wary of
monologues and critical of the lack of participation in the Catholic and
Protestant churches around them. They were outspoken about this issue and
argued from Scripture that something was wrong. An early Anabaptist tract
quoted Paul in I Corinthians 14 urging that all should contribute when the
church met together and complained: ‘When some one comes to church and hears
only one person speaking, and all the listeners are silent…who can or will
regard or confess the same to be a spiritual congregation?’ The reformers
had proclaimed the priesthood of all believers but the Anabaptists, their
contemporaries, were not impressed with what they found in the reformers’
churches. The monopoly of the Catholic priest seemed to have been replaced
by the monopoly of the reformed preacher. Experts were still disempowering
the congregation and hindering it from becoming mature.
Many Anabaptist congregations consciously moved away from the monologue
tradition towards a more interactive style with multiple participation and
dialogue.”

Other articles on the subject:

An emergent view:
http://www.anabaptistnetwork.com/node/356

Good article from an ex-Anglican:
http://www.anabaptistnetwork.com/node/157

Notes for The Problem with Preaching(with Biblical footnotes):
http://www.the-next-wave-ezine.info/issue93/index.cfm?id=16&ref=ARTICLES_DOING%20CHURCH_254

Just how far does the government need to go to protect our safety?

http://www.cnn.com/2007/TECH/space/02/19/asteroid.deflector.reut/index.html

Now the real question I have, is are there any blinking lights on any of those asteroids?

Posted 4/6/2007 5:17 PM

1 Comment:

Too bad CNN deleted the article…
Posted 4/7/2007 11:28 AM by midwifebethany

Here are a couple of articles to help you be a good fundamentalist.

http://www.av1611.org/nkjv.html

If you ever spent any time listening to a man by the name of Bill Gothard, this next article might not even seem funny, but rather, just normal. I’ve heard all of these methods of proving a point “biblically” used by Bill before. This guy even brings the CDC into it!

http://www.dbhome.dk/carlo/cat.htm

All that comes to mind is “Your logic is dizzying.” Someone should have tried that line at IBLP headquarters sometime.

Posted 3/29/2007 2:33 PM

5 Comments:

Wow. That second article is some complete and bitter satire. But you are so right - every one of those methods is used - frequently - all over the place…
Posted 3/29/2007 3:51 PM by novisigothsorkangaroos

Wow, how do you find this stuff?

I’m thinking that little symbol with the phone and the Bible looks familiar. It really resembles something used by…oh, who was it. I’ll have to do some research.
Posted 3/30/2007 6:48 AM by jonathan_camenisch

Yea, I mean, I don’t know about you guys, but I’ve been tempted toward idolotry of my cat numerous times! This guy needs to write about what the Bible says about dogs. According to Duet. 23:18 ‘dog’ is the Biblical word for male prostitue. The book also states that unclean meat should be thrown to the dogs. Would a true follower of Jahova allow such a creature in his house hold? I think not!

LOL

That first guy though, is seriously spastic. I can feel him yelling at me through the screne. I mean, he’s mad that the translators used the original greek words for hell instead of an english one- that really makes sense. I refuse to be stressed out by this.

~Tegwin
Posted 3/30/2007 4:05 PM by Tegwenava

that is some heavy stuff about the nkjv! guess i will have to get up and leave if they ever decide to read from it in church. :-p

i wish i had God’s email address, so I could send Him the one about cats… I mean, do you think He knew this when He created them? :-/ I like Tegwin’s point about dogs…

I found a pretty good book recently, A Matter of Basic Principles. First time I’d tried to think seriously about iblp in a long time.
Posted 3/31/2007 4:51 PM by miracles_start_now

You’re right. I’m not saying everyone lies on Xanga. They just don’t say everything. Not that they’re supposed to. But what’s anything without context? Guess that’s where knowing the person who wrote it comes in. Sort of like with the Bible.
Posted 4/6/2007 1:53 PM by Godseeker23

From The Writer’s Almanac:

“It’s the birthday of one of the great American journalists of the 20th
century, A.J. (Abbott Joseph) Liebling, born in New York (1904). He got
his first real writing job working at the New York World, and began
writing about New York City saloons and nightclubs, racetracks and corner
stores, gourmet restaurants and boxing rings. His favorite subjects were
food, journalism, and boxing.

“In 1939, he began to cover the war in Europe for The New Yorker. Unlike
other war correspondents, Liebling didn’t write about politics or combat
strategy. He wrote about day-to-day life among the soldiers and the
civilians. He later said that he missed the war years. He wrote, ‘The
times were full of certainties: We could be certain we were right—and we
were—and that certainty made us certain that anything we did was right,
too. I have seldom been sure I was right since. … I know that it is
socially acceptable to write about war as an unmitigated horror, but
subjectively at least, it was not true, and you can feel its pull on men’s
memories at the maudlin reunions of war divisions. They mourn for their
dead, but also for war.’”

A. J. Liebling also said, “Cynicism is often the shamefaced product of
inexperience.”

Like life at a training center, full of certainty and purpose.

Life, looked at objectively, often does not give the full picture.

Posted 3/23/2007 3:43 PM

2 Comments:

Wow, he seems like an extremely interesting writer, one that will make an excellent source in centurys to come of WW2 life. I love these sort of studies.

The last quote you have there is very good and very true.
Posted 3/25/2007 6:23 PM by Tegwenava

He was right, and that was a good point about knowing so certainly that you’re right.

Are you a cynic?
Posted 3/29/2007 11:28 AM by Godseeker23

I just love this quote, I laugh out loud sometimes when it comes to mind. I think it may be from the movie “We’re No Angles,” but I’m not certain.

Anyway, here it is:

“You’ve gotta admire him, even if you don’t.”

Can you think of anyone you would say this about?

Posted 3/16/2007 12:15 PM

8 Comments:

I tried but I can’t. I think I know what you mean, though. Can you?
Posted 3/16/2007 4:34 PM by Godseeker23

You’d have to meet them. The list starts with funny (as in “makes you laugh”) but I don’t know the rest of it offhand.
Posted 3/16/2007 4:35 PM by Godseeker23

Posted 3/17/2007 8:24 AM by jonathan_camenisch

I think you meant “Angels”. They were closer to angles than angels.
Posted 3/19/2007 9:25 AM by ThoughtForFood

I think you meant “Angels”. Those guys were closer to angles, I suppose…
Posted 3/19/2007 9:27 AM by ThoughtForFood

Although the Angles were real people. The Angles were a group of Germanic people who invaded Great Britain way back in the day. In fact, there name has been used as a pun with Angels for a long time. Supposedly Pope Gregory I saw a group of young Angle children for sale at a Roman slave market and was shocked by their beauty. He inquired about their origin and when he was told he responded “Not Angles, but Angels”. He therefore resolved to convert their homeland. Somehow it seems that buying their freedom might have been more helpful…
Posted 3/19/2007 6:56 PM by novisigothsorkangaroos

Yes, Jared. They invented fishing, right?
Posted 3/19/2007 7:54 PM by ThoughtForFood

Alright Christen, I’ll be more precise then. In Latin supposedly he actually said:
“Non Angli, sed angeli”

Wouldn’t it be fun to be able to go around making Latin puns?

And yes Jerusha, I like the way you think. They may well have been some of the first anglers…
Posted 3/20/2007 11:16 AM by novisigothsorkangaroos

Currently Listening to Awake by Josh Groban

When I become a world famous singer/song writer/musician I need to put strict usage rights on my work.

Josh Groban has gotten really popular with his latest CD. Several of the songs are on the easy listening stations that people at work listen to, and are even being pumped out into retail stores . . .

Now his latest music can be heard in the same venue in which we were putting up with the typical pop trash from girls who shave their heads and no name artists re-singing old songs from venerable institutions of the past like Culture Club . . .

I am sure this is great for Josh’s royalty earnings, but somehow it seems to erode some of the work, just the slightest bit maybe . . .

to wit:

Somehow, standing in a large warehouse style home improvement store in the customer service lane to return some building supplies does not feel like quite the right environment to appreciate Josh Groban’s “February Song.”

Then again, maybe it should. Maybe all of that trash music I’ve learned to put up with in such places has lowered my standards. If I could expect such quality music in retail establishments, I might drop my URGE subscription in favor of a SAM’s Club membership.

As it is, I dislike going to the grocery store almost as much as I dislike listening to Boy George.

Does Dillons really want to hurt me?

Posted 3/1/2007 1:33 PM

8 Comments:

About Dillons–you are missing the point. It’s not that they WANT to hurt you, or that they want NOT to hurt you. Whichever helps their bottom line, they would prefer. Do you, or does Jerusha, spend more money on groceries when you do the shopping? Then that is the person with the musical preference to which they would prefer to acquiesce.

And no, I’m not (quite) a cynic. There is, like, 1/2 mm on the scale between the actual cynic and me.
Posted 3/3/2007 4:45 PM by miracles_start_now

I agree about the grocery store. Why does food shopping have to be such a terrible experience? I like it fine when I do it with Jerusha and just have to talk with Melissa and push her in the cart, but it’s a different story when I have to do it for myself. After spending your whole life learning to invest in permanent rather than temporary things, you find yourself compelled to pour money into things which you know will have either been consumed or spoiled withing a week. And all in an atmosphere reminiscent of Home Depot. Can’t you at least make me feel good about loosing my money? Recently I did have one contrary experience. I stopped by a high-end import and natural food grocery store. All the fruit look great. They had a whole section devoted to chocolate. A large one devoted to import cheeses. The store smells nice. The food all looks beautiful and fun to eat. Shopping was so much fun. But alas, the financial damages are even more severe. So I continue to shop at the 24hr Wal-Mart Community store…
Posted 3/5/2007 8:32 AM by novisigothsorkangaroos

I missed something. If the word of God is like the spoon, where does “there is no spoon” come in? (I thought the spoon=reality. There is no reality; it is your mind that you bend. Postmodern worldview.) Can you explain again?
Posted 3/7/2007 1:02 PM by Godseeker23

Okay, I’m curious: how do you decide whether or not to give eprops? I can’t draw a line between when you do and when you don’t give them. Explain?
Posted 3/7/2007 1:38 PM by Godseeker23

Not real to us, but I think you were on to something when you talked about God being outside of time as we know it. (Like the Dilbert cartoon: “To you, is time a linear stream of events or a trail of endless possibilities?” “To me Time is a magazine. Now ask me about ‘Life.’”) Like Shakespeare wasn’t limited to Romeo and Juliet’s timeline; he lived outside it. And the analogy does break down: Unlike us, Romeo and Juliet didn’t have any choice on what they did, so there was no room for chance. (Which makes God that much better because he works it out for good to people who love him in spite of what sinful people choose.) Are we arguing or agreeing?
Posted 3/10/2007 4:10 PM by Godseeker23

“Are we arguing or agreeing?”

Yes.
Posted 3/12/2007 8:31 AM by ThinkingOnTheEdge

Yeah, I think it just went from one side of my hand to the other, and maybe just a little through my forearm. I’m pretty sure I wasn’t grounded anywhere else, as I was sitting on carpet. Definitely dangerous enough to prevent me from repeating it though.
Posted 3/13/2007 2:50 PM by madhatterb78

Oh and a typo. I was adjusting a belt, not a bolt
Posted 3/13/2007 2:53 PM by madhatterb78

We all know about Fred Phelps. I think if I were to label anyone anti-Christ (Martin Luther got to do it, why can’t I?) it would be him.

I do like to keep track of the nuts though. There is a new one I had not heard of before, his name is Darwin Fish. I’d never even heard of him before, but that really is his name (and it has nothing to do with fish with legs on them, just an apparent joke of fate on him). He is really quite a guy. You can read about him (from an opposing side) here. He is against everyone, and really doesn’t leave a side to stand on. It is fun to read really.

Anyway, one reason I like to watch these people is because sometimes when I find myself out on the edge of the mainstream, or the tried and true, I know that I haunt the same dark passages that these guys live in. I very much do not want to “go there” if you know what I mean.

However, the instant I pulled up his site, it was so obvious. Fear and hate. It just drips from the site.

Sorry guys, “fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate is the path to the dark side” And, so, yet another “want to be taken seriously” movement struck down at the first checkpoint.

Never do anything motivated by or that motivates fear and hate.

Now, lest you think I’ve just pinned myself up as impenetrable, I know I am not. Even ask I get irked at the likes of Fred Phelps and Pat Robertson, I know that I can easily fall into the same trap of hate and anger.

Ah well, what can we do? It was God’s decision to submit Himself to the humiliation of having His name carried exclusively by we fallible humans. If it makes us sad to see what people do with His name, how do you think it makes God feel?

I also like to read these people, because the error is so blatant, that sometimes I can find the end results of some of my own lines of thinking before I get there. Kind of a shortcut to learning if an idea is going to turn out to lead to a dead end. For instance, I don wonder sometimes if you can still go to heaven, even if your theology is flawed, and if so, how flawed can it be? David Fish makes it clear that you cannot go to heaven if your theology is flawed, and his Biblical defense of his position clearly proves that he is wrong.

I also enjoy reading the blatant misuse of scripture by crazy people. Why? Because I was subjected to it for several years myself. It just underlines for me the fact that, yes, just because the Bible “says it” does not make it true. You probably cannot understand how much I still battle with ideas in my head that, because of some obscure scripture or example in the Bible, I am condemning myself and my family to hell, or at least hell on earth, by my current actions (like listening to Lawrence Welk music).

Currently Listening to New Magnetic Wonder by Apples in Stereo

I was commenting on Godseeker23’s Xanga, and suddenly it hit me. I am really annoyed that God is not obvious. I mean, it is totally frustrating to me that if He is so big and so amazing and so powerful, how come we can’t see Him?

Then it it me. Wow, duh!

The amazing thing is that we cannot see Him. Imagine, an all powerful, trans-dimensional being that extends across all of the time and space of our universe, and yet, somehow, He keeps a low profile.

Think about it. When is the last time that God accidentally tripped over the cord and pulled the plug on something important like gravity or electrostatic attraction? Not in my memory. Now, of course, maybe he just goes back in time an wipes up His messes, but, well, I kind of doubt it.

What I mean is this. I DO believe that God is involved in our lives. He intervenes in human affairs, and yet. And yet, He never really shows up. I don’t mean things like hidden angle’s having their bodies crushed between cars to soften the impact. I mean things like praying for hope, or for changed lives and hearts and then how it happens. Not like some love potion from Shrek (”Now we’re SEXY!”) but slowly, steadily and hidden from view, so that years later you look back on the time and it seems distant and strange. Did time heal the wound, the hurt and the pain? No, time doesn’t do that, only God does. Like a road doesn’t take us to a destination, a car does, so time doesn’t heal, God does, but we travel over time in the process.

You look out your window and you don’t see God, but imagine this huge all-powerful trans-dimensional being that extends across (and beyond) all of the time and space of our universe secretly moving through every atom of the world you live in.

It is, quite frankly, amazing that he is so smooth that He never shows up, either physically though some odd anomalies in space/time that weird us out or meta-physically through people suddenly making drastic unexplainable changes in their outlook and behavior. I know the second does happen, sometimes, but not as often as we would like. Maybe that is the point, God doesn’t work that way. He stays hidden. After all, God told Moses he would die if he looked at Him. Maybe God is really saving our lives by staying hidden. Hidden both physically and meta-physically.

Maybe that is what all that empty space inside of all of the atoms is for. Even a smooth operator like God needs a little room to operate.

Posted 2/15/2007 11:58 AM

4 Comments:

Well said.

Although, what if God actually is obvious? What if all the things we call “natural” are really miraculous, and we just don’t see them that way because we’re so accustomed to them?
Posted 2/16/2007 7:16 AM by jonathan_camenisch

I agree about the space inside the atoms that is never actually traveled through by the molecules. Good thought.

Since I’m a different kind of learner than perhaps you are, I do find God to rather visible and obvious. I tend to be very auditory, and so being in constant conversation with him tends to make me aware of his presence- which often then manifests itself visually. Like sometimes he points funny or beautful things out to me in my surroundings, and so I see him there. Sometimes I see him playing with animals or children, or helping mothers, or working with men. I think the place I have seen him the most however, is in the clouds-the giant cumlionimbus of the oustreatched Florida sky. His majestic court in all its grandure and size seems to rest rather compfortably in the colorful and colosal sky. But an imagination can do that better than the senses can- so my observation is probably not fair.

Another way I’ve seen Him a lot lately (and this is more solid) is in studying physical geography. Even though we understand most of the forces and laws that govern the scientific rhelm, there are still things that rely completely on “chance” or the choice of God. For example, we can look at an analysis of the atmosphere, with all of the pressure gradients, cloud systems, teperature movements, convective cells, tides, jets stremes, fronts, etc, each of which operate under predictable laws like coriolis effect, gravity, Latent heat levels etc, and even when all the numbers fit into the equation, we cannot be totally sure which way a storm system will travel. This becomes incredibly amazing when you spend weeks studying the complete depth to which humans understand these concepts- it really seems like we should be able to predict- and yet for completely unexplainable reasons, we can’t. That is the hand of God- and if you look out your window with a birds eye view you will see it.

Also, Jared and I have talked about seeing the hand of God in statistics. For some reason there are a certain amount of car accidents a year- no more and no less, and this number remains almost constant- so WHY?! There is absolutely no reason why- other than because God said so. I mean, man has some control over how many air bags work, or seat belts are worn, or speed is driven, but how many times a year- a month even- do you avoid a totall collision by no more than a hairbredth simply because you looked up in time, or turned the wheel at just the right angle? (if your someone like me this analogy becomes particularly potent :). Now multiply that by all the people driving in the world. So why is it that we look up in time just so many times? There really isn’t an adiquate human explaniation. Any time you are really close to a bad wreck and an awful day this realization comes flooding into you; that moment when the personal brushes against the universal- which is primarily an exponent of “Chance” or the Choice of God. - Now look- you got me totally distracted from my school- good job Kristen!
Posted 2/19/2007 7:09 PM by Tegwenava

ok so, i’m an idiot! I put molecules up there in my first sentence instead of electrons- that’s why I’m a lit major Hope you got a good laugh Kristen
Posted 2/19/2007 8:35 PM by Tegwenava

Yeah, isn’t it interesting that he’s invisible?And that you can’t see him unless you *want* to. I guess that’s what pure in heart means.
Posted 2/26/2007 6:38 PM by Godseeker23

Currently Reading In Search of Schrodinger’s Cat: Quantum Physics And Reality by John Gribbin

Someone finally asked what the picture is. I’ve wanted to write about it for a while, so here goes.

I am greatly interested in quantum physics. You know, atoms, electrons and protons, black holes, Einstein, the relevance of time, etc.

It goes along with my theme really. Quantum physics is on the absolute edge of our knowledge of what is, well, what “is” is. I mean, it is getting at the real substance of what everything is made of. Breaking it down into tiny parts and finding out that most of the laws that govern what we call “reality” don’t apply in the subatomic world of what we are made of.

I feel that as we learn more and more about the universe, we learn more about God. I think that the things we learn about atomic structure say something about God. For instance, God is into REALLY big spaces that are seemingly empty, and yet teaming with life. The Ocean is our first example. I mean it is so huge and yet mostly void of anything, and yet every square inch is full of “wee beasties” as Anton van Leeuenhoek so aptly put it. Space is the next example. I was recently looking at a picture from Hubble of a part of space that is 13 BILLION light years away! Now, never minding how the light ever got here (that is a LONG TIME), just try to fathom how far away that is! Google quickly tells me that that 13 billion light years = 7.64204976 × 1022 miles (Google is SO cool), but you cannot honestly even think about that number, much less comprehend it.

Let us try though. Our sun is 93 million miles from us. At 186,000 miles per second, it takes light eight minutes to reach us from the sun. So if you drove your car to the sun at 60 miles per hour, it would take you 177 years to get there! (Best go with a solar powered car. Oh, and bring a friend, because you’ll have to have a child and maybe grandchildren to actually have someone ALIVE when the car gets there!)

(This article may never get finished, I keep looking up facts to check them and finding and learning new stuff and just end up reading about quantum physics instead of writing this article. The stuff is just so fascinating, I can’t get near it without being completely absorbed. I wonder if I emit a neutrino when I am absorbed by a web site?)

So anyway you can see that space is REALLY BIG. What about us? We are not really full of empty space are we? No? How about lead, it is really dense, right?

Here is how dense lead is, quote:

“Let’s take your typical lead atom for instance. A natural lead atom has 82 protons and somewhere around 126 neutrons held together in its nucleus (center of the atom). Whizzing around the nucleus are 82 electrons in several different energy orbits. To give you an idea of the relative size, let’s assume that nucleus with a total of 208 protons and neutrons is the size of a two-inch-wide ball. The first set of two orbiting electrons (in our expanded world their size would be 1/50 of an inch wide) would be 19 feet away from the ball, the next set of eight electrons would be at a distance of 76 feet and the farthest orbiting electrons would be one mile away. If we had two balls close together—bonded as found in lead metal—the distance between them would be over two miles apart in our relative world defined above. The main reason I want to throw these numbers out is that I want to make a point that most of an atom and most of a piece of lead is space!”

Got that? If the nucleus of a lead atom was two inches across, the farthest electrons in the atom would be a mile away from it! That is a LOT of empty space (relatively speaking)!

Now, there are all sorts of wild things going on in that empty space. Virtual particles are constantly showing up and disappearing in anything we consider “empty space.” Even the particles themselves are not fixed in any place. The presence or absence of an electron at any point cannot be “determined,” but rather we can simply calculate the probability of its existence in a given spot. If we actually conduct an experiment to “prove” the existence of the electron, we end up simply causing a certain outcome, but we know from math and experiments, that we really cannot ever know where it is. Schrodinger’s poor cat knows all too well about this problem. He is still waiting, to this day, to know if he is dead or not, and what is really wacky, is read about Schordinger’s cat, but put yourself in there. Where is your spirit while you wait to be dead or undead? Purgatory suddenly sounds like a very logically appealing idea!

Anyway, all very wild stuff, and all true, and all an insight into the mind of God himself! He did make this stuff, and He thought of it.

Originally I wanted an atom for my picture, but I couldn’t find a picture I liked. Of course, no one can see an atom, we only know they exist, first from math, and then from experiments. We have no idea what they really look like. In fact, I’m not sure you can look at them. (See any analogies to God there?) The typical model shows electrons “orbiting” the nucleus, but that is really just a mental picture for us to understand the math. The electrons don’t neatly “orbit around” but they fly all over the place (although they do have specific “areas” they must occupy), and only statistical probability tells us where each atom is most likely to be at any given time.

I started thinking about what is one of the coolest things related to the study of quantum physics, and that is the particle accelerator. These are huge machines that make up mile long circles. In them is equipment used to take these little atoms and get them moving very very fast and run them into each other and then see what happens. It is kind of like if you wanted to see what sort of stuff would come out if you ran two trucks into each other at several thousand miles per hour. You would need a VERY long road to get them going that fast, and using a circle would help. Really it is just NASCAR for geeks (the going fast part, not the running into each other).

However, while my heart skips a beat every time I see a picture of the Fermi National Accelerator Laboratory. I’m not sure it evokes the right feeling and picture for the average reader.

I went looking for pictures of the internals of these accelerators, but, while they evoke deep emotions in me also, most of them just look like a lot of metal and wires, which, while post 911, that does strike terror into the hearts of most people, still didn’t get the point across.

Besides, I wanted something from history too, because while we are making great strides daily in our knowledge of quantum physics, I really think we are at about the equivalent of where we were in about 1905 with quantum physics in our understanding of Christ. So I looked into particle accelerator lore and history, and what did I discover, but that Van de Graff generators were originally used to accelerate particles for experiments. Yeah, you know, those cool steel balls you put your hand on at the science museum and your hair stands up! Apparently those are also really very useful in the study of quantum physics.

Basically A Van de Graaff generator could be integrated with a particle accelerator. The generator produces the high tensions (in the megavolt range) that accelerate the particles. I believe that this was really the purpose for which these nifty items were invented. The hair thing was just a novelty that keeps them around today.

And so I found this image of a 40 foot high Van de Graff generator set up in an aircraft hangar, in 1933 at that most venerable institution, MIT.

So, in short, the picture is part of the history of quantum physics research. (A very cool part I might add.) I hope to be part of the history of a new and deeper understanding of God. What does that mean?

Well, let me leave you with this short explanation of what it means to me. In the early part of the last century, quantum physics was leaping and bounding like crazy. However, it went in spurts. You see, each new “discovery” was often simply the acceptance of some new idea, that was so crazy, no one was willing to even consider it before. The old guys (anyone over 30) were usually so set in their understanding of classical physics, that they were often unwilling to even explore new ideas. So all of the truly great leaps forward came from grad students who had no reputation at stake. They had sharp minds, and were eager, but most of all, this was all new to them, and they were open to new ideas that shattered previous understanding of the universe. Then, though, they would develop reputations of their own, and became slow to propose new and crazy ideas. So it would take another group of young whippersnappers to make the next break through.

Openness to new ideas, and a willingness to stake one’s reputation on a questionable suposition that was very different from the accepted standard were required for making progress in the field of quantum physics.

I believe that time has come for God’s people to do this. To stop their unwillingness to try new ideas, just because it has never been that way before or for the sake of not being made a fool of, and forge ahead with new ideas to solve problems. I am not saying throw away the old. Quantum physics actually works along side classical mechanics, but without quantum physics, classical mechanics could not exist. If we don’t allow ourselves to explore God more deeply though, we are going to find ourselves in big trouble. I am also not saying we just accept any new idea. The way science works is that you take a known incongruity between what you think reality to be, and what you see and come up with ideas of how to bring these together. Then you test these ideas. First you test them on the black board, then in the lab, and finally you watch reality to see if it lines up. Sometimes ideas take years to come to maturity. Sometimes theories go about as considered “truth” for decades, only to be proven bogus by some “whippersnapper,” but that is how the world God made for us works.

I like to think on the edge of our understanding of God, and then try to stretch that boundry, even if it scares people, or makes me sound foolish.

So that is what the picture is, and why I chose it.

Posted 2/13/2007 12:24 AM

8 Comments:

Thanks. I like your quote too: “God is really good at keeping a low profile that way.
Posted 2/14/2007 5:43 PM by Godseeker23 - delete - block user

That’s a pretty good explanation. I don’t get the cat thing; guess I’ll have to work on that.

Let’s say the year was 3007. Some young genius decides “I think this quantum mechanics stuff is bogus. We need to think on the edge, push the limit, get out of the box.”

But he has no shred of evidence to show quantum mechanics was bogus. In fact, he doesn’t even understand the claims of quantum mechanics or the math behind it. He just has a 13th-grade “understanding” of it (that is, a non-understanding). So he goes about grappling with problems that were solved a thousand years ago — at least solved more plausibly than anything he will come up with.

This is the average theological discussion in today’s American evangelicalism.
Posted 2/15/2007 9:15 AM by jonathan_camenisch

Do you think the problems in today’s church (of which there is a lot of evidence) would be largely solved by returning to a more strict adherence to the doctrine of the reformation as it was taught 1000+ years ago?

Personally, I don’t, but it is a point I’m willing to consider.

Do you have examples?
Posted 2/15/2007 11:42 AM by ThinkingOnTheEdge

Well, I could try to answer that, but it’s really not the point. “Reformed” didn’t exist 1000 years ago, but a lot of important thought did. People had wrestled with the Bible’s teachings, with who God has revealed Himself to be, etc. Some of them had great minds and very Godly hearts.

They didn’t finish the job, mind you. But if we ignore their efforts altogether, then why should anyone pay attention to us?

I believe the study of Scripture and of God is a body activity. We’re in this together–not only with our contemporaries, but with those who have gone before.
Posted 2/15/2007 6:55 PM by beccachino

Oops. Wrong login. How did th…

Oh well.
Posted 2/16/2007 7:18 AM by jonathan_camenisch

Since you don’t get notified of my comments on my blog, here: http://www.xanga.com/jonathan_camenisch/569064555/item.html
Posted 2/16/2007 7:20 AM by jonathan_camenisch

Okay, I haven’t read thoroughly on Schrodinger’s cat, so maybe this question is premature and stupid, but here goes:

What about God? Since he sees what is happening all the time, doesn’t that mean it’s real right now, even if no one else can see it?
Posted 3/9/2007 12:43 PM by Godseeker23

Well, God could only see the state of the cat in the sense that he can see the future. The state is not yet determined, so it cannot be known. Seeing the future is knowing what will happen. However, if you had a vision of the future, it would be a blur, because the future is constantly changing. Much of it has not even yet been determined.

The question of whether God really sees the future is kind of complex, because, from our standpoint, it has not yet happened.

God may know what will happen, purely out of wisdom or understanding, but to actually be there just does not work for us.

Of course, most believe that God lives outside of our time, and that is not actually a state that we can grasp.

So, in short, no, it does not mean that it is “real right now” in any sense of the word “real” that we as humans can utilize. No more than the return of Christ is “real.” It will happen, and God knows when, but since it has not happened yet, it is not “real.” The point is that the cat’s state isn’t just unknown, it has not yet been determined.
Posted 3/9/2007 2:32 PM by ThinkingOnTheEdge

Micah, this is really for you. You need to listen to this commentary when it comes on line on NPR (about 7:30 tonight):

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=7138254

I was on the path of working to remove any motivation in my life caused by fear before I met Micah, however, in the years after he was allowed to wear shorts outside of the house (after he was 22 I think) Micah had to make up for lost time. He got into snow cross and motor cross, and, well, his blog has some lovely hospital stories now.

Micah really is not into running form danger, though, because he spent his life being forced to run from anything that might be harmful.

Lately I have found a new form of fear that I have. Intimidation. I am easily intimidated. The funny thing is, that you can both be intimidated and intimidate, often both at once. Sometimes I even try to intimidate in response to being intimidated. Kind of like a scared dog that barks and snarls. Being intimidated, though, is the same as fear.

Anyway, the above commentary on NPR is really good on the topic of not running from danger. I think Micah would approve.

Posted 2/2/2007 3:35 PM

2 Comments:

No wonder you hate your job.
Posted 2/7/2007 10:03 AM by Godseeker23

BTW, what’s that picture of?
Posted 2/7/2007 10:06 AM by Godseeker23

Ah, what a sad scary world we live in:

http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/02/01/boston.bombscare/index.html

Honestly, the whole town gets its knickers in a knot, and the mayor is still going on about how “irresponsible” this was, over a few LED’s and a battery. I always thought of Boston as a rather progressive town too.

Time was when this would have been considered funny, but apparently old Ben Loddin has done his work well. He has turned us into a bunch of paranoid ninnies. Every time someone drops a nine volt battery into a public trash can we have to call out the bomb squad now.

I will admit, it would be nice if the sign wasn’t making an obscene gesture (although I wouldn’t have actually realized that is what it was doing without being told), and it is sad that it was a stunt used to promote what is apparently a rather raunchy show.

The result would have been the same if it was Mickey Mouse though, and it is just sad that we are so paranoid now days. I think that is the real goal of terrorists, and it is working. In olden days, a huge part of an army’s offense was intimidation. Well, I think that offense is working very well on us now.

So the next time you see an LED sign on the side of the road, show Alceida that you are not intimidated, and just give that bundle of scary looking wires the finger!

Posted 2/1/2007 1:28 PM

5 Comments:

Interesting times.
Do you have any constructive advice for the Boston authorities?
I guess if it’s such a raunchy show, maybe this was a good stunt to reach their intended audience. I wonder how much it will cost them.
Posted 2/2/2007 7:46 AM by jonathan_camenisch

You bring a level of considered through, intelligence and wisdom to Xanga that is very annoying.
No, no constructive advice.
Yes, the truth is, I think that the show’s audience will grow exponentially due to this. Though I am sure no one really intended this response, and no one will publicly acknowledge any benefit, nor will anyone try it again.
The point is that the terrorists have won. We are paranoid as a society. It isn’t just the Boston authorities, it is the entire society. They were motivated by scared people with cell phones, and are commended by scared people in political office, who were voted in by scared people watching CNN and FOX News.

We honestly can’t be safe from everything anyway. If anyone really wants to wreak havoc, they can do it. They just have to be smart and patient. Fortunately, most smart and patient people are more interested in making their cell phones play MP3’s than in blowing things up.

You know, in Iraq every person and car is a potential threat. I see a few dozen cars outside of my window. Any one of them could be packed full of fertilizer. Should I be scared? Probably.
Posted 2/2/2007 12:25 PM by ThinkingOnTheEdge

Right. I see your point.

I just can’t help but look for some solution. They’ve won a lot, but can we do anything about it? Idunno.
Posted 2/2/2007 1:17 PM by jonathan_camenisch

yah, it would be nice if they did put LED signs by the side of the road… would definitely save some lives. guess we’d better start safety education for terrorists now. If we can educate them in aircraft operation AND air traffic control (which we do) why not safety? Who knows, maybe rational thought would defeat fanatic extremism and they’d change their minds. then again, maybe not…
Posted 2/9/2007 4:22 PM by miracles_start_now

The question of when does life begin and end is very important for both the abortion debate, and the end of life issues brought up with people for whom others have to decide when the person is alive versus when the body is just on auto-pilot.

So when things like this come up, they really make me do some thinking.

http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/meast/01/29/israel.deadmansperm.ap/index.html

“I am ten years old . . . my father died fourteen years ago . . . he never met my mother . . . he was a virgin when he died.” [blink]

I wonder if Victor Frankenstein would have been in favor of abortion or euthanasia?

Many people just avoid the weird questions that come up as we find out just how much control God did give us over life, by labeling all “mucking about” as “evil,” however, this seems like sticking one’s head in the sand. Things like frozen embryos and human cloning should cause us to ask deep questions about who and what we are.

We claim to have a spiritual birthright that sets us apart from the animals, but if man can reproduce himself in a test tube, then just when is it that the “eternal spirit” comes to inahabit the being? Do we produce this also, by some chemical process or does God “step in” and plant something at some given moment in time and space? If so, when does this happen, and by what means is this “spiritual component” “attached?” If we take someone and freeze them for 40 million years, is their spirit frozen too? What happens to all of the frozen embryos when Christ returns to earth?

Before you answer, reference your answers with some scripture.

God does not reveal everything to us, and sometimes I think we get indignant about things based on our sensibilities, and not on God’s word. Opinions are fine, but just be careful not to lash out at people or label them “evil” just because you don’t think their socks coordinate properly with their scientific research. Ethics is an important topic, but “unethical” and “evil” are not the same thing. One is mostly pragmatic, while the other is most dogmatic. Make sure your dogma is based on clear scriptural teaching, and leave the rest to just the facts.

Posted 1/29/2007 10:58 PM

6 Comments:

Things like frozen embryos and human cloning should cause us to ask deep questions about who and what we are.

True.

I think the biggest offense of the “non-pro-life” voice these days is that issues of morality are avoided altogether. Those who raise doubts about stem-cell research in embryos are labeled “anti-science.” When congress opposes partial-birth abortion, they get chided to leave such decisions to doctors–as if the only issues involved are scientific-mechanical ones, and that law and morality have nothing to do with it.

In other words, the deep questions about who and what we are are not really welcome in the public arena. What does it mean to be human? Who wants to discuss such things. Let the scientists take care of it.

And for persuading the public? Let’s stick to marketing tactics encapsulated in nine-second sound bites.

And when does life begin?

We shouldn’t make that an easy question, but I have yet to hear a reasonable answer proposed except conception. (Please enlighten me if you’ve heard a better idea.)

As far as Scripture - well, the Bible treats unborn children as persons, so we can’t make birth the demarcation. Beyond that, I don’t think the Bible spells out an answer for us.

But just reasoning about it from that point–between conception and birth, when is there a day that the embryo becomes essentially different than the day before? Is there a particular point in time when the baby starts to be able to feel pain? To have emotions? To experience an awareness of mother and father (relationships)? All these things may be profound aspects of person-hood, but when is the moment that the line is crossed?

But the difference between sperm plus egg and the embryo is one of essence, not degree–even while the embryo remains one cell only. In terms of information the physical person is all there. Where is the spirit? I don’t know. But the body is basically what it’s going to be minus time to be realized according to the DNA that’s already there.

I know I’m in over my head in terms of the science. But I just have not heard a scientist address this matter with a different answer–without disregarding human-ness altogether.

If you want a good answer for this (I mean really good), read The Abolition of Man by C.S. Lewis. It doesn’t address details about bio-ethics, but it sure wipes out a lot of dead-end fallacies that cloud the debate. It will also make your brain a bit sore.
Posted 1/30/2007 7:19 PM by jonathan_camenisch

I’ll try to respond

As for public discussion of morality. I totally disagree. I hear ethics discussed in Washington all the time. Most people who hate Bush hate him on moral grounds. Even the desire to raise minimum wage is a moral issue, as ar